In Luke 1:19, it says that the angel Gabriel appeared onto Zacharias:
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/luke/1?lang=eng
19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
But in D&C 27:7, it says that Elias appeared onto Zacharias:
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/27.7?lang=eng#6
7 And also John the son of Zacharias, which Zacharias he (Elias) visited and gave promise that he should have a son, and his name should be John, and he should be filled with the spirit of Elias;
The name Esaias was not mentioned in the Old Testament. In the New Testament, it meant Isaiah:
John 1
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/john/1.23?lang=eng#22
23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
Matthew 3
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Luke 3
4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Isaiah 40
3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
But JS listed Esaias separately from Isaiah:
D&C 76:100
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76.100?lang=eng#99
100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;
Not only that, JS mentioned Esaias 3 other times:
D&C 84
11 And Gad under the hand of Esaias;
12 And Esaias received it under the hand of God.
13 Esaias also lived in the days of Abraham, and was blessed of him—
Was there really an Esaias existed in Abraham's days, different from Isaiah?
D&C 128
17 And again, in connection with this quotation I will give you a quotation from one of the prophets, who had his eye fixed on the restoration of the priesthood, the glories to be revealed in the last days, and in an especial manner this most glorious of all subjects belonging to the everlasting gospel, namely, the baptism for the dead; for Malachi says, last chapter, verses 5th and 6th: Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
If Luke 1:17 meant the same as Malachi 4:6, then D&C contradicts the Bible since John came in the spirit of Elias turning the hearts of the fathers to the children already, unless Elias came again and did similar things.
Luke 1
17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
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The word Christ didn’t appear in the Old Testament at all, neither the name “Jesus Christ”. Yet, the name “Jesus Christ” and the word Christ appeared in the Book of Mormon before Jesus was born. Based on the errors listed above, it's hard to believe that the Book of Mormon is true.
Alma 45:4 And Alma said again: Believest thou in Jesus Christ, who shall come?
Helaman 13:6 Yea, heavy destruction awaiteth this people, and it surely cometh unto this people, and nothing can save this people save it be repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ, who surely shall come into the world, and shall suffer many things and shall be slain for his people.
Helaman 14:12 And also that ye might know of the coming of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and of earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and that ye might know of the signs of his coming, to the intent that ye might believe on his name.
Mosiah 4:3 And it came to pass that after they had spoken these words the Spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins, and having peace of conscience, because of the exceeding faith which they had in Jesus Christ who should come, according to the words which king Benjamin had spoken unto them.
Alma 36:17 And it came to pass that as I was thus racked with torment, while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold, I remembered also to have heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world.
2 Nephi 25:19 For according to the words of the prophets, the Messiah cometh in six hundred years from the time that my father left Jerusalem; and according to the words of the prophets, and also the word of the angel of God, his name shall be Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Alma 38:8 And it came to pass that I was three days and three nights in the most bitter pain and anguish of soul; and never, until I did cry out unto the Lord Jesus Christ for mercy, did I receive a remission of my sins. But behold, I did cry unto him and I did find peace to my soul.
Alma 5:48 I say unto you, that I know of myself that whatsoever I shall say unto you, concerning that which is to come, is true; and I say unto you, that I know that Jesus Christ shall come, yea, the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace, and mercy, and truth. And behold, it is he that cometh to take away the sins of the world, yea, the sins of every man who steadfastly believeth on his name.
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Jesus quoted Peter’s paraphrase of Moses’ speech before Peter even said it. In 3 Nephi when Jesus came to America, he quoted Moses, but not from Moses' words in Deuteronomy, but almost exactly like Peter's paraphrase of Moses' words, which didn't exist until later on:
3 Nephi 20:23
Behold, I am he of whom Moses spake, saying: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass that every soul who will not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people.
Acts 3:22-23
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Deuteronomy 18:15-19
The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
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How did Mormon define charity almost the same as Paul did?
Moroni 7
1 And now I, Moroni, write a few of the words of my father Mormon, which he spake concerning faith, hope, and charity; for after this manner did he speak unto the people, as he taught them in the synagogue which they had built for the place of worship.
45 And charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1 Corinthians 13
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
........................................................... Total mistake or lie? I won't be surprised that the church will modify these words later.
As of 3/24/2014
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr?lang=eng
A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus.
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book of Mormons biggest mistakes
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a9BBc1tVycY&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Da9BBc1tVycY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a989OOSOycw
8:57
3 Nephi 20:23
Behold, I am he of whom Moses spake, saying: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass that every soul who will not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people.
Acts 3:22-23
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Deuteronomy 18:15-19
The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
Youtube:
This one is very interesting. I'm not sure how reliable big data discovery is, but it does tell something very interesting:
2013 - Chris Johnson - 'How the Book of Mormon Destroyed Mormonism'
View of the Hebrews was mentioned in the above video but it was not the closest one to the BoM.
The fellow Chris in the above video also has the following personal video:
(23 minutes) 'This is how I discovered truth. May name is Chiris and I'm an Ex Mormon'
I think he is quite lost in the end thinking that there is no Satan.
Not sure how the following video helped Mormonism that much:
The New World - Book of Mormon Documentary
I wouldn't say the following on Youtube is not something of significance. In a sense, Joseph Smith is a very smart fellow and he knows the scriptures much deeper than anyone else even though he didn't figure it out all at the same time. He didn't claim to know it all from the beginning either. He said gradually his spiritual mind was opened. Neither Moses knew everything from the start either.
Debate - Are Mormons Christians
hellen mar Kimball
http://imgur.com/cUevQDO
http://imgur.com/cSLL7Vw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHsvZooc4Bc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP3GJeYIN3s
whymormonsquestion.org
staylds.org
mormonmatter.org
A thoughtful faith
mormon stories
mormon stories sunday school
bycommonconcent.com
feministmormonhousewives.org
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHsvZooc4Bc
mormonthink.com/grantpalmer.htm
I think most people, even ex-Mormons, are a kind of biased when talking about the Mormon church.Certainly the Mormons taught a lot about the saving ordinances and other stuff other than Jesus, but they do teach about the atonement too in their Gospel Principles class. It's just not every day. See Chapter 3:
Jesus Christ, Our Chosen Leader and Savior
Chapter 11 The Life of Christ
Chapter 12 The Atonement
The church does not teach these three lessens every Sunday. Even though other churches talk about Jesus a lot, it doesn't mean that Christians can do whatever they like to do. If they continuously sin, Jesus is not going to accept them. Even the Lord said, if ye love me, obey my commandments. That's why the Mormon church has to teach the Lord's commandments. It doesn't matter how much you pray to Jesus or call on his name, if a Christian does not obey commandments, the Lord won't know him. This is why other churches don't seem to have systematic teachings setup. I'm not sure how they prepare their sermons. It seems to me that they prepare things on the fly.
The Mormon people aren't all the best Christians for sure. There are so many Mormons. Many Christians out there these days have gone astray in moral standards. At least the Mormon church still holds up the standards in many areas, as shown in Gospel Principles they teach every Sunday:
http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles
It's true that the history of the Church does not look that good in certain aspects, but the way other people treated the Mormons those days were even worse. If we all try to find faults with one single person or group of people, we can find anything to make them look bad almost.
Joseph Smith was a mere man without formal education. There is really nothing to brag about him. He was even prideful at times. But he did accomplish one thing, establishing the Mormon church. If this is one thing the Lord wanted to accomplish through him, then it succeeded.
The church leaders like to sugarcoat everything. This is true. But it wasn't so in Doctrine and Covenant. Majority of the time the Lord was chastising his servants in the Doctrine and Covenant. There was no sugarcoating back then. Joseph Smith himself had to admit faults and repent. He did not try to make himself look that good in Doctrine and Covenant.
He might be lost later when he said certain things. I'm not sure why he was like that. That's the worst part. He lost his credibility as a result of that. Thus it is hard to believe in his first vision. That's probably why one of president of the church said the validity of the church totally relies on if Smith had the first vision or not because he had performed so badly that without that first vision, everything else happened would disqualify him as a prophet.
Things get changed over time like temple ceremonies got changed doesn't really measure that much since many of the old rules in the Old Testament were terminated too later on. The New Testament changed a lot of the old rules and people in the New Testament time didn't have to follow all the laws set in the Old Testament.
The temple rituals sounded cruel at one time, but think about it, in the Old Testament time, it was even worse. Sometimes Priests went into the Holy of the Holy and never made it out alive. Even in the New Testament time, people got punished to death for lying to the Holy Ghost. See Acts 5
Maybe we need to better understand the Bible and God. If animal sacrifices were carried out these days, I'm sure a lot of people will scream that you can't treat animals like that. I had a hard time to understand animal sacrifices when I was not a Christian. God is a loving God, but why would he have people kill animals? And people sometimes?
It is hard to justify polygamy. It's so hard to tell any validity since Joseph Smith is not creditable.
Thus it's so hard to validate the first vision.
Now we know that the Book of Mormon might not has physical evidence. It could be a fiction. We don't have much to support any of Joseph's claims. All we have is a huge structure of the church, and people who would not hear anything contrary to their believes. I don't even think they care about Joseph practiced polygamy. Some members know all about it and still think it was celestial marriage stuff.
Members seem to want to stay blind of the outside world. They trust their prophet so much and only listen to their prophet. It does sound like their brains have been programmed that way, brain washed.
Joseph was a courageous man and he labored a lot too to establish the church. It's still not easy to tell if he did have the first vision or not.
Grace is a word that Mormons don't talk much about. They use word atonement that other churches don't talk about.
I don't really think it matter what color or shirt you wear to go to church. People don't really care that much. It's true that most men like white shirt since it's pure. Just like in Heaven, they wear white most often because it's pure. They don't wear black or purple. I think ex-Mormons tend to have this spirit of rebellion and it's not really a Christian virtual.
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So there is no cross in the Mormon church. Their testimonies tend to be, "I know this church is true. I know that Joseph Smith is a true prophet." They've been told to bear such testimonies since they were little kids. They were taught to lie based on their feelings.
Mormons are told not to look at anti-Mormon materials, not to be exposed to other Christian churches. Missionaries are aware of which investigator has been to other churches. They don't seem to like that. They don't mingle with other Christians. President Monson taught church members to stand strong while alone being a Mormon. It was not about Jesus, but about being a Mormon.
If a spouse fell out of the church, the other spouse will feel hopeless because only through marriage that they could go to the Celestial kingdom.
I need to investigate about the part that a wife will be called by her husband after he resurrected from the grave, otherwise, she can't go to Celestial Kingdom without him. Her deceased child will not be raised by her in the spirit world but to be adopted by another Mormon family. Where do these stories come from?
There is no evidence of the 600 years of human history described in the Book of Mormon. At least the church did not tell there is evidence, but only imply that there is.
Mormons are prideful, arrogant, unfriendly (some of them, not all)
But I still think it's a good idea to be married for eternity. Mormons don't talk about Jesus that much. But they do talk about the savior. They are grateful. It's just that they've got too much to talk about. They keep talking about commandment, not much grace.
I think some of the ex-Mormon's testimonies are extreme. It doesn't reflect the truth. It's ok for men to wear any colored shirts, not just white.
Is it strange not to drink coffee? I don't think coffee is a good thing to drink.
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Before 10/15/013
I wish I could reach a verdict soon. It's dreadful not knowing the truth.
Does the LORD have a church on earth these days?
According to Myron Fagan:
"Do I have to tell you more about how this National
Council of Churches is deliberately destroying faith in Christianity? I
don't think so. But this I will tell you. If you are a member of any
congregation whose pastor and church are members of this Judas
organization, you-- your contributions-- are helping the Illuminati's
plot to destroy Christianity and your faith in God and Jesus Christ thus
you are deliberately delivering your children to be indoctrinated with
disbelief in God and Church and which can easily transform them into
atheists.
Find out immediately if your Church is a member of
the National Council of Churches and, for the love of God and your
children, if it is, withdraw from it at once. However, let me warn you
that the same destroy-religion process has been infiltrated into other
denominations. If you have seen the Negro march on Selma and other such
demonstrations, you have seen how the Negro mobs are led and encouraged
by ministers, and even Catholic priests and nuns, who march along with
them. As a matter of fact, the Mormon Church is about the only one I know of that is clean of that kind of Judas infiltration.
Of course there are many individual churches and
pastors who are honest and sincere. Find one such for yourself and for
your children.
See: http://www.awakeandarise.org/article/MyronFagan.htm
I'm not sure who he is, but he seems to know a lot. It seems that most of the larger churches have been infiltrated by the Illuminati except the Mormon church. Myron did suggest that if a church and its pastor have not been affected by the Illuminati, have not been part of a larger denomination, is still isolated from the outside, and the pastor is an honest and sincere Christian, it's OK to join. The truth is, once you've been part of the Mormon church, you know that other churches don't seem to interpret the Bible correctly sometimes. The Mormon church tend to be picky on the correctness on the interpretation of the Bible, but they modified their book and history many times.
So the choices are individual churches that have not been part of a lager denomination, or the Mormon church that has not been affected by the Illuminati. May as well just follow Christ yourself and learn all the good from the acceptable churches and reject the bad. Another reason to be part of a church would be to fellowship with other Christians. It seems that no Christians want to fellowship outside of a church. It's very strange. They have to be part of a church in order to fellowship.
There are good Christians in each church. They might not know everything but their devotion to the LORD is true. I've known quite a few very good Christians in the Mormon church too. They came to help us while we were most in need.See: http://www.awakeandarise.org/article/MyronFagan.htm
I'm not sure who he is, but he seems to know a lot. It seems that most of the larger churches have been infiltrated by the Illuminati except the Mormon church. Myron did suggest that if a church and its pastor have not been affected by the Illuminati, have not been part of a larger denomination, is still isolated from the outside, and the pastor is an honest and sincere Christian, it's OK to join. The truth is, once you've been part of the Mormon church, you know that other churches don't seem to interpret the Bible correctly sometimes. The Mormon church tend to be picky on the correctness on the interpretation of the Bible, but they modified their book and history many times.
So the choices are individual churches that have not been part of a lager denomination, or the Mormon church that has not been affected by the Illuminati. May as well just follow Christ yourself and learn all the good from the acceptable churches and reject the bad. Another reason to be part of a church would be to fellowship with other Christians. It seems that no Christians want to fellowship outside of a church. It's very strange. They have to be part of a church in order to fellowship.
The main problem is which church to pay tithe to.
Even though the Book of Mormon could be fabricated, It did a good job to get me to go to churches on Sundays.
It could have been 3 Niphi 18
22 And behold, ye shall meet together oft; and ye shall not forbid any man from coming unto you when ye shall meet together, but suffer them that they may come unto you and forbid them not;
Or Mosiah 18
23 And he commanded them that they should observe the sabbath day, and keep it holy, and also every day they should give thanks to the Lord their God.
25 And there was one day in every week that was set apart that they should gather themselves together to teach the people, and to worship the Lord their God, and also, as often as it was in their power, to assemble themselves together.
Or Moroni 6
5 And the church did meet together oft, to fast and to pray, and to speak one with another concerning the welfare of their souls.
6 And they did meet together oft to partake of bread and wine, in remembrance of the Lord Jesus.
Or 4 Nephi
12 And they did not walk any more after the performances and ordinances of the law of Moses; but they did walk after the commandments which they had received from their Lord and their God, continuing in fasting and prayer, and in meeting together oft both to pray and to hear the word of the Lord.
Here is an interesting verse:
Mosiah 18
19 And he commanded them that they should teach nothing save it were the things which he had taught, and which had been spoken by the mouth of the holy prophets.
20 Yea, even he commanded them that they should preach nothing save it were repentance and faith on the Lord, who had redeemed his people.
If the church follows strictly the above verses, then there will be a lot of stuff that need to be trimmed off.
Another reason to consider is related to the following verses:
Mosiah 18
24 And he also commanded them that the priests whom he had ordained should labor with their own hands for their support.
26 And the priests were not to depend upon the people for their support; but for their labor they were to receive the grace of God, that they might wax strong in the Spirit, having the knowledge of God, that they might teach with power and authority from God.
Based on the above verses, most other churches don't meet the requirements. I think it would be hard for the pastors. Sometimes I feel uncomfortable to be part of a church that the pastor's whole family is supported by the church. It seems to me like it's a family business almost. The church never grows and most of the tithing goes to supporting the pastor's family. The only benefit other than learning from the pastor is a chance to fellowship with other Christians.
It's so hard to find a church to pay tithing to.
I still think the Book of Mormon was a great book, holds high standard for Christians, even though it could be fabricated. It really helps people to do better.
Mosiah 18
27 And again Alma commanded that the people of the church should impart of their substance, every one according to that which he had; if he have more abundantly he should impart more abundantly; and of him that had but little, but little should be required; and to him that had not should be given.
People will really have to have very high standards in order to do these things. Nowadays, people's standards have dropped and they tend to take advantage of the church. That's why the church has to require high level of commitment from each member.
Sadly, not all members are willing to even share their labor and strength. There is a lot of superficial stuff going on. People tend to contribute more if they get praised right away on the surface. Very few are willing to contribute without others knowing. There are always people who work harder and there are always people who contribute less.
I guess the hardest part is that as soon as a church gets big, you won't know if the leaders will lead correctly. It's hard for a small church to survive. If it doesn't get bigger, then maybe there is something wrong with it. As soon as it gets bigger, there will be problems because it won't be one pastor any more. Even one of the well known local church is supporting IHOP. I thought it was a pretty descent church, but since I found out that it supports IHOP, I have doubts now.
I do like the system the Mormons have. They encourage each member to be independent and they are organized in helping members. They do a lot good to others too. The church will never be in debt. They could be judgmental. It's hard for those members who don't have Temple recommend because they might be judged, or who don't pay a full tithing. It is hard to mingle with them if you don't feel like one of them.
I wish there is a church who could deserve my devotion to pay a full tithing to.
If apostle Peter even made a mistake thinking that the Gentiles need to be circumcised before he would mingle with them, and chastised by apostle Paul, it means as an apostle, Peter didn't even know the Gospel correctly enough to avoid a mistake. Yet, we all acknowledge Peter as a true apostle. See:
Galatians 2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: 4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
and Paul's warning in
Galatians 1:6, "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel."
Galatians 1:8,9 "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
What kind of an apostle was Peter? He didn't even understand the Gospel correctly and had to be corrected by Paul. Obviously even Jesus' original apostles made mistakes. They made their own decisions and wrong ones too.
So could a prophet make mistakes? How much mistakes could be tolerated without jeopardizing the authenticity of the prophet?
We all expect the prophets and apostles to be perfect. Is that reasonable? We expect the LORD's church to be perfect too, but even in the old days, that had not been the case. See Revelation's first few chapters about the LORD's warning to the seven churches. Sometimes they did horrible things those days. They even committed fornication and adultery.
Revelation 2
18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God,
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
So the servants of the LORD were given a chance to repent, and if they didn't repent, they would suffer great tribulation.
Obviously the early churches were not perfect. Even the servants of the LORD could be led astray. They didn't know well. They've always struggled. They probably constantly needed repentance too and the LORD's chastisement. So there is no way if the LORD has his church on earth these days, it could be perfect all the time. The leaders of the Mormon church knew that former leaders had made mistakes. That's probably why they said the truthfulness of the church totally relies on if Joseph Smith was called of God to start this church. If he was called, then the church was initiated by the LORD. If he lied about the calling, then it is fake.
Maybe it's good to have critics of the church, otherwise, its leaders will not realize their mistakes. It's so hard to know which part of the doctrine is good and which part is bad. It's so hard to tell truth from lies once a person started lying. His credibility will be destroyed and even if he was truthful at one time, it would be hard for people to believe.
Mormonthink.com
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Before 10/12/2013
Which church is true? This might not be a hard question for those who have never been part of the Mormon church. If the Mormon church did not exist, this would probably never be a question of interest. For me, it's very hard because I was converted to Christianity by the Mormons. I never read the Bible before I read the Book of Mormon. But when I was confronted with the question that if the Mormon church is the only true church on earth, I couldn't answer. I had to check out other churches too before I could conclude. So I spent about a couple of years going from church to church with that question in mind. When you visit a church with that type of question in mind, it's very hard to believe any church is the LORD's church any more. I couldn't stay in any of the churches I visited. Finally a coworker dragged me into her church and promised me that her church is the best church, then I went and stayed. But by that time, I already knew the Book of Mormon and couldn't conceal that fact. I couldn't help but to be negative about that church sometimes. I'm not sure what prompted me to talk about the Book of Mormon in a Bible study with another member of that church. It could be that I wasn't comfortable about the fact that the pastor was a paid pastor, and his family was supported by the church too. There were other things that I wasn't comfortable with, such as the church was trying to raise funds to buy its own property, but it was hard to raise that much. Also my coworker told me that pastor was going to treat his wife a trip to Hawaii for her Birthday. I really didn't want my hard earned money to be used for that kind of expense. I wouldn't even take a Birthday trip to Hawaii myself. So I mentioned in the Bible study that the Book of Mormon said that priests should labor with their own hands and support themselves. See:
Mosiah 18:24 And he also commanded them that the priests whom he had ordained should labor with their own hands for their support.
I guess soon that went into the pastor's ears and he gave me a hard time in front of everyone in church. It was humiliating. Then I understood why a young couple who had to leave that church because the guy got the girl pregnant and they were not married. I've heard that pastor would not let them come to church that way. I don't want to be totally negative about that church. There are many positive things about it. It was the one church I stayed the longest other than the Mormon church. I stayed there for a whole year and got baptized there by the pastor himself. Thinking about those days just makes me cry. It was the one church that brought me close to the LORD the most. Every service at the end, people would go to the alter and pray. I had never seen that before and was always afraid to go up there. Sisters would come and take me up to the front and pray with them. Whenever they do that, they seem to be very warm and loving. So I felt at ease to go to the front. I saw people crying and speaking in tongues. It was all real. They taught me how to pray. No one could pray like that without crying. That brought me closer to the LORD so much. There are so many other good things to talk about that church and people in that church. This exceptional couple from South America were extremely nice to me. I was invited to their house all the time to the point that I was tired of going there. They often opened their house for other people too and the whole church at New Year. I became attached to them too. I went everyone with them, ate with them, spent more time with them than their own daughter. They had so much faith that the husband was debating if he should quit his job and just serve the LORD. They shared personal testimonies and it was amazing. When they were young, both of them smoked drugs all the time until they ended up in the hospital. They got invited to go to church one day and the husband just wanted to get out of there. But every time he got up to leave, he heard the pastor talking as if he was talking directly to him. He couldn't leave and stayed. He kept going and couldn't leave that church. Eventually both his wife and him got saved. There are many other amazing stories too about how other people were saved. But if it was such a good church, why it was just not for me? There were other things going on too that made me wonder all the time. I think the pastor was too strict. One day he told the whole congregation to stand up and no one dared to sit down. I thought he was angry with me and wanted to show his power. I also remember a person stood up right in the middle of his preaching and left. I was told not to go to the restroom often when he was preaching and no one should leave the church in the middle because it meant disrespect. One day, pastor was preaching about not wasting money by giving money to the poor. He said there was a guy who always asked him for money for milk, but the guy wouldn't come to church. That made me feel like it wasn't from the LORD, although I wasn't sure. Once in a while there would be other pastors preaching as guests. And there would be more people on those days. One day, a young man came with his head covered with a scarf of something. It happened that the guest preacher was pretty wild. He made the young man take his scarf off his head. The young man did but looked terribly hurt. I thought he was bald or something. I didn't like the way that pastor treated the young man. Another day, pastor was telling the congregation about the disputes they had among the leaders of the church. There were many churches and pastors in the Pentecostal denomination. About half of them believe God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost was one personage with three different titles. The other half believe they were three different personages. So the second group persecuted the first group and excommunicated some of the top leaders. It was quite shocking to hear Christian leaders treated each other like that.
Another thing I was not comfortable about was that the church didn't seem to be able to buy a building unless a miracle happens. I saw members spending money on going to restaurants a lot and even a family on welfare goes to Disney every year. I didn't even go to Disney that much. The young girls would hang out in restaurants over night a lot. That seems to be one of the favorite things to do among the younger girls. They also like to go on a church sponsored mission to Japan or other countries a few weeks at a time. It didn't seem to be missionary work to me but overseas tour or vacation almost. The church didn't seem to grow much over the years. It remained about the same number of people, maybe anywhere between 70-100. They are all very close and spend a lot of time together. There were many fun activities.
Even though that church was not close to where I lived, I drove there for over a year, at least once a week and later, two or three times a week sometimes. They had service Wed evening, Sunday morning and evening. They wanted everyone to go to church three times a week. It was a little bit too much for me those days, but I tried until I got kicked out. After that, I didn't have any desire to even visit that church again. I didn't think the way that pastor treated some of the people was right. It would be OK if some church member treated me that way, but not the pastor.
The next Sunday after I left that church, I didn't have anywhere to go back back to the local Mormon church. I didn't have any desire to go to any other church. I felt peace and at ease at the Mormon church that day. I didn't have to get up and sing and dance in the church if I didn't feel like to. No one seemed to notice me either. I could just sit there quietly and listen. That day the hymn seemed so good that I really felt peace there.
Many of the other churches I visited before I landed in the Pentecostal church were not for me either. Some of them were poorly organized that no one wanted to stay in the nursery with the children. They put one or two adults there with a bunch of children and let them play themselves as long as they don't hurt each other. One lady really wanted to get out of the nursery so she could play instruments for the service and she had a hard time to find a replacement. That was probably the first or second time I visited there. Since my daughter was in the nursery, I stayed there with her.
I also visited all the Chinese speaking churches and didn't think I should stay there. Chinese churches seem to have a lot of demand. They had to serve snacks in the hall. Parents had to take turns to bring meals to the nursery. Someone brought pizza and soda that day, but I really didn't want my daughter to eat junk food. One pastor was surprised that I could read the Bible myself. They tend to be overly friendly at the beginning, and as soon as they found out you were not qualified to be a Christian, they exclude you. It was a sad experience.
In the Mormon church, I didn't have to worry about anything leaving my daughter in the nursery. It seemed to be always well staffed and there were plenty of sisters working there all the time. It was their duty, their job, not if they can volunteer that day. Snakes, if any, were always brought in by the workers. No parents were ever asked to take turns to bring snacks in, or supplies. I guess as long as you are not a member, you have no duty at all. You just let other people worry about those things. And you don't have to worry about what to put into that basket when it gets passed along. They don't collect money from visitors at all. But they make it real if you want to become a member. When I was at the Pentecostal church, a member who was on welfare told me that the Mormon church required 10% tithing and it was hard to join.
Back to the Mormon church. Why did I decide to join the Mormon church? First of all, they kept saying it was the only true church. So I thought, if it was true, then it won't hurt to be baptized there, and if I didn't get baptized there, I might regret if it is the true church. So I'd better get baptized there no matter what. Secondly, how could I know if it is the only true church if I don't step in in and see what it is like. You can't know everything outside the door. Still I didn't get baptized until a year and half after I left the Pentecostal church. By that time, I was seriously in love with God and wanted to make a commitment to pay tithing. I had a hard time to pay tithing to pastors whose entire family was supported by a church. But in the Mormon church, everyone was a volunteer, so no one gets to spend the tithing money personally. While, maybe when the upper leaders in Utah travel for church duties, they don't have to pay for their travel expenses. But I'm sure everyone of them worked hard all their lives and retired with the duty. Even though the church has staff that get paid well, they go to work just as normal workers, I think. They had to work as regular people in order to get paid. So the Mormon church was a good candidate for my tithing money.
There are good things and bad things about the Mormon church. I like it that the church does not have any debt and every member contributes. It has a huge army of missionaries and organized missionary work. The Relief Society could be helpful in time of need and was quite organized. The church is mostly local, close to home. I like how they administer the sacrament. It seemed to be the same as Jesus wanted. The upper organization fits the description of the New Testament, with prophet, apostles, and the seventy. The church teaches people to be self-reliant and not borrow to spend. The members seem to be responsible for themselves. The church really focus on strengthening the family, which could be forgotten in this world today. We really need to be constantly reminded of the importance of a family in order to keep it intact these days. The meaning of the family relationship, particularly the eternity perspective, seem to be the best way to keep families together. People these days tend to focus on relationships outside of a family. Young people like to spend their lives with their friends. Adults seem to forget about their responsibility for their parents. It's this eternal meaning of a family that helps to bring a sense of peace, love, and happiness across generations. Just like Glenn Beck said, as soon as he and his wife got sealed in the Temple, they realized they have to be with each other for eternity and there is no way they could be happy unless they make some serious changes in themselves. Many couples couldn't tolerate each other that long. You really need to be more perfect to fit into that type of relationship. After all, the whole purpose for us to be on earth is to learn to be more perfect like God. We usually forget about that.
I think there are so many things we don't know about the spirit world. Most people don't know what will happen to those who didn't get baptized or never heard about Jesus Christ before they die, like my Grandmothers. Christians have different believes and the Bible is not clear on that. Is really just Heaven and hell in the spirit world? That's one reason many non-believers couldn't accept Christianity. When Glenn Beck visited the Mormon church and found out that the Mormons believe there are four places to go to in the spirit world eventually, it was much easier for him to accept. I wish it is that way too because I don't want my Grandmothers to go to hell. This is an area that's a mystery. I don't understand why some Christians have to have answers to this type of questions even though the Bible didn't give a clear answer. I don't think the Bible has answers for everything since it can't.
John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
It the Bible cannot even contain all the things Jesus did on earth, how could it contain everything that will happen in the spirit world? Of course not. So we are not sure where those people who didn't get baptized or didn't hear about Christ while alive will eventually end up at. I certainly don't think they all deserve to go to hell. And there were many people who were born before Jesus came, so how could they accept Him as their savior if He didn't even come yet? There are also Christians who believe that even though those people didn't know Jesus, they had no excuse denying God's existence. So if they believed that God existed and was a good person, they could go to Heaven too. Again, these are just speculations since we don't have scriptures to back up. There are many people hold the belief that there is a creator, but they don't believe in Christianity. And these people did many good things on earth too. Many of them were not baptized like Gandhi. Could they go to Heaven? Well, according to the scriptures, they can't, because Jesus is the only way. Obviously, Gandhi should not go to hell, otherwise, our God would be so unreasonable. Majority of the Christian churches these days won't have a good answer to this question.
I always had so many questions while I was searching for a church. This is also the very reason the pastor at that Pentecostal church didn't like me. I was reminded that the only thing I needed to know was just that Jesus could save me, and that was all I needed to know. No need to ask more questions. I was judged, and almost hated for questioning, and everyone else in that church was better than me because they were obedient to the pastor and believed just what the pastor had to say. They almost equated the pastor to the Bible. It was like every word, every thought from the pastor was correct. It was more like a cult than anything else.
When I debated with other Christians, they said the same thing. They said the Bible was adequate and enough for us to know just what we need to know. They think that God didn't think that we need to know more than what's in the Bible, otherwise, He would have given us more. Maybe it is true. Maybe we shouldn't ask the question like where Gandhi is going to end up at, but it's such an important question that I have to ask. Will Gandhi go to Heaven? I don't think so because he was not baptized. Will Gandhi go to hell? Of course not. Then where should Gandhi go eventually? Will there be a place for his soul to rest for eternity? Of course there is. We just don't know what the name of that place because the Bible didn't tell. Or maybe the Bible did mention except we couldn't understand the scriptures.
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions:
In this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXmALH5eS9k
The Korean pastor saw different houses in Heaven of all kinds of conditions. Will Gandhi have a house too in the spirit world? Will his house be located in Heaven too? If most good people who were not baptized will live in Heaven, then why would we need to have faith in Jesus Christ? Why would we even need to be baptized? Why can't we just all do good and go to heaven? I don't think Gandhi will go to heaven. Would he be sent to hell? I hope not. I don't think he should be sent to hell. I really think there is a place in the spirit world for people like Gandhi, and it's not in the heaven where God resides, and it's not in hell. No Christians would agree that there is such a place even though it's very logical that there should be such a place. Catholics invented a place called purgatory for children who have not been baptized to go because everyone would be concerned about those children. Christians would have no answer to this question because the Bible didn't give a full answer. I think most Christians would agree that children who have not been baptized shouldn't go to hell, but they are not allowed to add on to God's words.
The Mormons believe that children under eight years of age can not be held accountable for their sins. If they die before they reach that age, they will quality to go to heaven. Other people who were not baptized will not definitely go to hell either, although they can't go to heaven until they are baptized and accepted Christ. That's why baptism for the dead is for, so the spirit of the dead will have a choice to accept Christ in the spirit world. I totally think this is necessary, otherwise, people like my Grandmothers will never get a chance to go to heaven and it's not fair. They never heard about Jesus Christ while they were alive. The Mormon's belief on this point is so logical, reasonable, fair, and human. And some of it is supported by the Bible too. They believe that Gospel is being preached to the spirits of the dead in spirit prison, so once they've been baptized in the temple by the living, they can accept Christ and leave spirit prison to go to paradise.
1 Peter 3: 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
The above tells that after Christ was crucified and died, he was resurrected and went to preach to the spirits in prison, those who drowned in the flood in Noah's time. That's probably how those spirits would have a second chance to be saved. Obviously God is very forgiving. But Christians tend to avoid the above verses and interpret it some other ways. To me, there is no doubt that even disobedient sinners would get a second chance after they die. So for the dead who are in prison, the resurrection of Christ allowed him to go and preach to them. For us the living, baptism saves us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ too.
In the New Testament time, there were people performing baptism for the dead:
1 Corinthians 15:29
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
The apostle did not say that it was not the right thing to do to baptize for the dead. It actually sounded reasonable to baptize for the dead because the dead will rise again. So I don't think there is anything wrong to perform baptism for the dead. At least the Bible didn't say against it. It is probably not something that was performed in the Old Testament time that is not necessary to do any longer.
So it was not like Joseph Smith made up Temple baptism all by himself. And he was correct that the Gospel will be preached to the dead so the dead can be given another chance. None of the other churches believe such things. Could this alone invalidate all other churches since they don't go by the Bible strictly? They only go by the part that they like and ignore the rest. Obviously the Bible couldn't contain everything God has in his mind. The Bible did not elaborate on how the dead were baptized. The Bible does not explain a lot of the things such as how Enoch and his whole city were taken up to heaven. It did not tell what Enoch did while he was alive other than Enoch walked with God. It did not tell in greater detail what the earth was like and caused the catastrophic event in Jeremiah 4:23-26:
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger.
This is not the second coming. This was way before Adam was created. After Adam was created, God only flooded the earth once and did not destroy mankind again. The fruitful place was a wilderness seems to mean that the earth was fruitful before this happened. And there were even cities at that time before this catastrophic event. For some reason, God was angered fiercely and decided to destroy the earth. None of this could be accepted by the Christians these days. No pastor ever mentioned about this and would not dare to even bring it up because they don't know how to explain it. So basically, churches these days only go by part of the Bible and not the whole because they don't understand God's actions in the past and his plan in the future.
Also, the creation of the earth could not be covered in Genesis alone. And the way the Bible was translated from the Hebrew language distorted the original meaning. See Jordan Maxwell's explanation of Genesis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4slflfzpf8
So Genesis verse one should really be:
In the beginning Elohim, created the heavens and the earth.
See also http://xwalk.ca/elohim.html
"The word used for God in Genesis 1:1 is "Elohim," which is a form of the word "El." In the Hebrew language the "im" ending imputes plurality. Therefore, "Elohim" is the plural from of the word "El."
It is interesting to note that each usage of this word throughout the Bible is grammatically incorrect. It is a plural noun used with singular verbs. According to Genesis 1:1, the Creator of the Universe, Elohim, exists as a plural being.
If this were not so then the word "El" or perhaps Yahweh would have been used. However, the Holy Spirit chose to use the word "Elohim," the plural form of the name of God in the very first place where the name of God is proclaimed.
And who could tell what God meant by us in Genesis 1:26?
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
And how did God create female in the image of God?
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Was there a female member among Elohim?
Also Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
The http://xwalk.ca/elohim.html page has even more examples and explanations of the plurality of God. And even Moses could have made a mistake when he wrote about God.
More on the Bible later. There were so much to talk about the Bible.
Back to where people like Gandhi will go eventually, here is another verse:
2 Corinthians 12:2 "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven."
Who can understand what the third heaven mean here? It's interesting that Christians will come up with their own interpretations and usually are so sure that they are right.
But most Christians would avoid such details and deem it unnecessary to know the answer because it's irrelevant to our salvation. It might not be relevant to us, but it is extremely important for those who have never heard about Jesus while alive.
1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory." 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Is Paul implying that the resurrected bodies have different degrees of glory? Or everyone will be raised with the same type of spiritual body, but of different sizes? It's very hard to tell.
http://www.eldenwatson.net/BoM.htm
Here Joseph Smith's sister mentioned in 1827 about Smith's first vision. So even though there was no written account of the first vision, the story had been told to the family. And she remembered after the first vision, Smith went to the hills frequently and told the family about the plates. She also confirmed about the trials his brother had before obtaining the plates. Smith's mother wrote about a group of men in the neighborhood including a conjurer who had traveled 60 miles to get there, and someone had to make a similar trip in order to ask him to come, gathered in three days time scheming to get the plates away from Smith. It seems that these men were so desperate to stop Joseph from writing a book. For what purpose they had to try so hard to get the plates away from Joseph? Imagine if someone in our current days told people that he saw God and God told him to translate a book from ancient plates, and one day he disappeared for a few hours around 2 AM in the morning, would his neighbors call up a conjurer from 60 miles away to get here as soon as possible so they get the plates from this man? Sounds like the neighbors all have to be just as crazy to do that. And they probably have nothing else important to do.
And the family were really serious about this event. Joseph's wife Emma had to ride a horse for 4-5 miles to warn Joseph about what was going on. If my husband claimed that he obtained sacred plates and the neighbors are plotting to take them away from him, unless I truly believe what he said, I would not ride a horse for 4-5 miles to warn him. Obviously the family truly believed him. So he even fooled his whole family including his wife. It must be really important for him to succeed that he didn't tell the truth to anyone if he didn't have the plates.
And as soon as Joseph heard about the news, he dropped his work, and returned home immediately. Then he went on foot to fetch the plates where it was hidden and ran most of the time. He really put a lot of effort around nothing. For what purpose he wanted to go through all this trouble? Just so that he could have multiple wives someday. If he knew this is all fake, he should know well that he would not go to heaven this way. The only benefit he will get is multiple wives someday and a large crowd of followers. And what benefit his mother and wife will get from all of this? They are not going to get multiple husbands for sure. So obviously there is no personal interest for Lucy Smith to lie for his son. Will his mother be that happy and satisfied to see his son have multiple wives someday? I don't think at the time Lucy Smith wrote about these things, she knew that someday Joseph will have multiple wives. Neither Emma knew it. They all worked hard for him running around and worry about him probably. I don't think Lucy Smith faked and lied in her writing about what happened those days.
And why would Joseph retrieve the breastplate separately? It seems a lot of trouble running back and forth. Maybe Smith liked to run around a lot. Or did he really want to make it real so his relatives won't suspect anything?
A mob came to the house to get the plates. The mob did not come to punish Joseph for messing up with women. So the mob was after him way before he started practicing polygamy. They hated him for having the plates and translate them into a book. Why they tried so hard to stop him from starting a church? There was no guarantee that he could be successful in starting a church yet. These men feared so much about this book. If today someone claims he is going to translate a book and start a church, would anyone even care?
What do these men fear? Are they afraid that Joseph will have multiple wives? Are they afraid of Joseph will have men practice polygamy someday? Of course not. They didn't know that Joseph will practice polygamy someday. They fear about the book was going to be translated. They didn't want Joseph to translate the book.
The whole family didn't get much rest or peace. Only a few days later Joseph received intimations of the return of the mob. So obviously people thought it was real that the plates existed. And other people, Joseph Knight and Martin Harris, related too about the removing of the plates. So all these activities of Joseph moving the plates from one place to another were all known to the people close to him. It was all real except no one has seen them uncovered except Joseph.
The mob really arrived "as soon as it was dark", and found the chest under the floor and splintered it to pieces, but were unsuccessful in finding the plates in the loft. Why would Joseph endanger his life, his family's lives just for organizing his church and have multiple wives someday? Wouldn't a logical man stop faking to save his life and his families lives? All he had to do was just to tell all the neighbors that there were no plates and he wasn't going to translate anything. I would drop the idea of starting a church if I were him, unless the LORD commanded me to and it was for the LORD.
Martin Harris wrote:
"The excitement in the village upon the subject had become such that some had threatened to mob Joseph, and also to tar and feather him. They said he should never leave until he had shown the plates. It was unsafe for him to remain, so I determined that he must go to his father-in-law's in Pennsylvania. He wrote to his brother-in-law Alvah Hale, requesting him to come for him."
So obviously the village people couldn't believe or wanted to take the plates away from Joseph, and they were vicious people, just likes the Jews who wanted Jesus crucified almost. They threatened to mob, tar and feather Joseph not because he messed with some woman, not at this point, but that he would not show them the plates and turn the plates to them. They wanted to thwart his effort to translate the book and start a church. Obviously it was life threatening already. And Martin Harris determined that Joseph must move away. It was serious business that Martin Harris had to give Joseph $50 in silver to pay off Joseph's debts before his departure. And both Martin Harris and Lucy Smith recorded this. So this has to be real. So Joseph fooled Martin Harris too if the plates were not real. Martin Harris really believed that Joseph was going to do the LORD's work.
Martin Harris places the move of Joseph and Emma to Harmony at "the last of October, 1827. It might have been the first of November". Joseph Smith, however remembers that they arrived at the house of his wife's father in the month of December. So there could be chronological mistakes in people's memory.
I guess once Joseph set out to accomplish his dream, nothing could stop him, considering that they had to take all of their possessions with them, and Emma was 2.5 months pregnant. Joseph must be desperate to accomplish his goal of having his own followers and multiple wives.
"By this timely aid was I enabled to reach the place of my destination in Pennsylvania, and immediately after my arrival there I commenced copying the characters of the plates. I copyed a considerable number of them and by means of the Urim and Thummim I translated some of them which I did between the time I arrived at the house of my wife's father in the month of December, and the February following." [PJS 1:284; HC 1:19]
What did Smith mean that he copied a considerable number of characters of the plates?
Martin Harris traveled 1250 miles just to show the Egyptian characters to all who were professed linguists. It does sound like a serious matter. If there were no characters to show, what did Martin Harris do running around that much to New York?
"...but when he got there he found that Lucy Harris was angry with him. She had planned on making the trip to New York City with him, and he just up and left without her. When he returned she prepared a separate bed and room for him which she refused to enter. [REH 155]"
It's obvious that Martin Harris did run around with the copied characters to at least two professed linguists based on the various records. And they were not able to tell what the characters mean.
Martin Harris had to take wife Lucy Harris with him to Joseph's place. Sounds like Lucy Harris was crazy too ransacking every nook and corner of the house.
"This completes Martin's 1250 mile tour accomplished in just 74 days. Travelling thirty miles in a day by mule team is no particular accomplishment, but averaging that distance for an extended period of time is extremely strenuous, and would require great motivation."
Martin Harris was really motivated.
"When my husband was translating the Book of Mormon, I wrote a part of it, as he dictated each sentence, word for word, and when he came to proper names he could not pronounce, or long words, he spelled them out, and while I was writing them, if I made any mistake in spelling, he would stop me and correct my spelling, although it was impossible for him to see how I was writing them down at the time. Even the word Sarah he could not pronounce at first, but had to spell it, and I would pronounce it for him."
Joseph couldn't even pronounce Sarah. Doesn't seem like he was educated enough.
"As the word "Sarah" does not appear in the Book of Mormon, it is more likely that the word "Sariah" was intended as is found in a later report by Edmund C. Biggs:
"This brings to my mind a statement of the Elect Lady, Emma, in the winter of 1856. She said to me, 'When you see David Whitmer you will see an honest man.' And in the same conversation, she remarked of her husband Joseph's limited education while he was translating the Book of Mormon, and she was scribe at the time, 'He could not pronounce the word Sariah.' [DWI 126]"
Joseph's English was really limited at the beginning.
"When he stopped for any purpose at any time he would, when he commenced again, begin where he left off without any hesitation, and one time while he was translating he stopped suddenly, pale as a sheet, and said, 'Emma, did Jerusalem have walls around it?' When I answered 'Yes,' he replied 'Oh! I was afraid I had been deceived.' He had such a limited knowledge of history at that time that he did not even know that Jerusalem was surrounded by walls." [EMD 1:530-531]
Emma knew more than Joseph.
"He [David Whitmer] said Smith translated by means of a pair of large bound Speciales ie the 'Book of Mormon', that the Characters would appear in the air & stay until correctly translated and then disappear that Smith was ignorant of the Bible that when translating he first came to where Jerusalem was spoken of as a 'Walled City' he stopped until they got a Bible & showed him where the fact was recorded - Smith not believing it was a walled city." [MMM 486]
Smith didn't know the Bible well.
Based on this type of translation, it wouldn't be a surprise that the book might have some flaws in it.
Joseph left his dying wife as soon as she got a little bit better to go after Martin Harris for the manuscripts. If it was all his own imaginations, he would have no need to start a long journey for such a thing, leaving his wife behind. This all seems to be a serious matter. And Joseph did not sleep for one hour in two weeks after his first born passed away. Is it really worth it to take the matter so seriously if it all fake?
I see why he had to hide the plates from men. Even the manuscripts were stolen. If he showed men the plates, they would have stolen them too and never return them to Joseph.
Even Joseph and his Mother Lucy couldn't get the same story the same. Not sure if Joseph told his mother wrong, or Lucy remembered wrong, or Joseph himself wrote wrong. It was hard to keep the story the same whenever it got retold to another person. That's probably why the church kept clarifying the books by modifying them.
"I did not however go immediately to translating but went to laboring with my hands upon a small farm which I had purchased of my wife's father, in order to provide for my family." [PJS 1:288; see HC 1:28]
Joseph worked on a farm to support his family. He was not just making a living as a gold digger.
"In writing for J[oseph]. S[mith]. I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it and dictating hour after hour, with nothing between us." [EMD 1:539]
Very interesting. What would be the normal, acceptable way to translate? Not using anything?
The different accounts of Joseph's parents visiting them were hard to match up. It tells that it's realistic for unmatched stories of same events. Joseph was meager to the point that I would think he should focus on working and feed his family instead of translating. It is strange that the book of Mormon translation was that important to him and Emma. If Emma would have thought it was all fake, she would have told Joseph to stop dreaming and doing this weird thing. Obviously Emma thought it was real too and didn't question.
"Now he Could not translate But little Being poor and nobody to write for him But his wife and she Could not do much and take Care of her house and he Being poor and no means to live But work. His wifes father and family were all against him and would not h[e]lp him. He and his wife Came up to see me the first of the winter 1828 and told me his Case. But I was not in easy Circumstances and I did not know what it mite amount to and my wife and familey all against me about helping him. But I let him have some little provisions and some few things out of the Store apair of shoes and three Dollars in money to help him a litle." [JKR 36]
Obviously they were really poor now. Why would he continue this work even though his wife's family were against it? Silly if he had to fake all this work and starve his family.
They were so poor that Joseph Knight gave them a little money to buy paper to translate.
"... behold, I say unto thee Joseph, when thou hast translated a few more pages thou shalt stop for a season, even until I command thee again; then thou mayest translate again. And except thou do this, behold thou shalt have no more gift, and I will take away the things which I have entrusted with thee. [D&C 5:30-31]
Throughout Doctrine and Covenants, the LORD's tone has always been very strict and critical of every little mistake Joseph or others made. I don't understand why if Joseph faked the whole thing, he had to criticize and punish himself so much. Is it for just looking real?
There has to be some truth in this whole process. At least a book did get published, so we can't say they didn't write.
The LORD promised to send a scribe to Joseph and Oliver Cowdery came.
"In April, all Mr. Cowdery's affairs being arranged according to his mind, he and Samuel set out for Pennsylvania. The weather for sometime previous had been very wet and disagreeable - raining, freezing and thawing alternately, which had rendered the roads almost impassable, particularly in the middle of the day. Notwithstanding, Mr. Cowdery was not to be detained either by wind or weather, and they persevered until they arrived at Joseph's house, although Oliver froze one of his toes and he and Samuel suffered much on the road from fatigue." [REH 184]
They were really determined to do this work.
In D&C 6, Oliver is given a sacred gift from above, by which he will "know mysteries which are great and marvelous; therefore thou shalt exercise thy gift, that thou mayest find out mysteries."
In D&C 6, Oliver is told that by exercising his gift, he will "bring many to the knowledge of the truth, yea, convince them of the error of their ways." (v11)
"And when Alma had done this he departed out of the land of Zarahemla, as if to go into the land of Melek. And it came to pass that he was never heard of more; as to his death or burial we know not of."
"Behold, this we know, that he was a righteous man; and the saying went abroad in the church that he was taken up by the Spirit, or buried by the hand of the Lord, even as Moses. But behold, the scriptures saith the Lord took Moses unto himself; and we suppose that he has also received Alma in the spirit, unto himself; therefore, for this cause we know nothing concerning his death and burial."
'Discussion of this passage might easily lead their minds to a difference of opinion as to whether John the Revelator was taken by the Lord "unto himself", as Joseph says they had.'
As a self-claimed prophet, Joseph wasn't sure if John the revelator was taken by the Lord "unto himself". A prophet might not know everything?
5/15/1829 was the date of the restoration of the Aaronic Priesthood. It's true that the priesthood was not given at the very beginning but revealed at a later time. This was used by critics too.
And they had to inquire about baptism too.
"One morning however they sat down to their usual work when the first thing that presented itself to Joseph was a commandment from God that he and Oliver should repair to the water and each of them be baptized." [REH 185]
"We still continued the <work of> translation, when in the ensuing month [May, Eighteen hundred and twenty nine] we on a certain day went into the woods to pray and inquire of the Lord respecting baptism for the remission of sins as we found mentioned in the translation of the plates." [PJS 1:290; see HC 1:39]
So the different ordinances were revealed at different time, not all at the same time. And they had to inquire about it to get an answer. It was not given to them at the beginning.
Even Oliver Cowdery wrote:
"...and we only waited for the commandment to be given 'Arise and be baptized.'" [JSH 1:71, note]
Did he receive revelation too or heard from Joseph?
"About this time my brother Samuel H. Smith came came to visit us. We informed him of what the Lord was about to do for the children of men; and to reason with him out of the Bible; ... The result was that he obtained revelation for himself sufficient to convince him of the truth of our assertions to him and on the twenty fifth day of that same month in which we had been baptized and ordained; Oliver Cowdery baptized him, And he returned to his father's house greatly glorifying and praising God, being filled with the Holy Spirit." [PJS 1:292; see HC 1:44]
Even Samuel Smith received revelation for himself and look at how he experienced after the baptism.
'Lucy records that on the day following the experience of the three witnesses, they returned to their home in Manchester, and states that in a few days they were followed by Joseph, Oliver and the Whitmers, for a visit. Sunday seems like a particularly appropriate day for a visit, so I have selected the only Sunday remaining in June. It was during this visit, in Manchester, that the eight witnesses saw and handled the plates. After the witnesses returned to the house, the angel again appeared to Joseph, whereupon Joseph returned the plates to his care. [See REH 203]'
Did they really see and handled the plates?
http://www.sacred-texts.com/mor/tboa/index.htm
Opposing evidences:
Why Our Family Left The Mormon Church
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a989OOSOycw&list=PL2erCzHF6PI62Pzb1IIlDHIxryAn7RMVK
31:33 "Every Mormon Should Know"
Deuteronomy 18:20
32:55 How Joseph Smith translated according to David Whitmer, one of the three witnesses.
33:50 Sometimes Joseph Smith was on the other side of the curtain, sometimes not.
More than 3000 changes to the Book of Mormon.
34:30 Publishers asked Joseph if some of the grammatical mistakes should be corrected, Joseph said no.
Changes made to the original Book of Mormon.
37:48 Lucy Smith's quote about Joseph's ability to make up stories. Both his Father and Brother were off season teachers.
Comments:
being consecrated to the church. Thanks for bringing that up. It definitely shows that its the CHURCH and not Christ, that mormons are devoted to. @6:02
Consider avoiding all churches, as they are all cults created by man.
Maybe they
just got tired of helping pay for $3 BILLION shopping malls to further
enrich the 12 "apostles" (mafioso) and their minions who run this
"church" built on nothing but conjecture and outright lies.
Read
"No Man Knows My History: The life of Joseph Smith," by Fawn Brodie, a
courageous woman who was born into LDS but couldn't stop asking
difficult questions. Her book is a fascinating history showing how one
man, equipped with nothing but BS, charm and chutzpah, mixed it with the
westward yearnings of the time and human desire for select and exalted
status, and parlayed it into a major religion. You know as you read that
it won't end well for him, but it was a hell of a ride while it lasted.
I have studied Islam for a few years and see parallels between the two. Anytime someone says they have word for word something from god your bs detectors should go up. Both Islam and the Mormons are full of bs.
I am the Great ~ Great grandson of John Taylor, the third president of the church. When I was eight years old my earthly father left the home for good. My mother was excommunicated shortly after this event. I stayed with the church till the age of 20 after attending the LDS business college in SLC. In a meeting with the missionary president I was told I should not seek to serve a mission. My heart was broken and I left the church. There was NO explainable reason for this.
you should watch some of the jew vs. christian debates on youtube. you would soon see that the new testament is false as well.
I was born and raised LDS and my lifelong goal was to be sealed in the temple for time and all eternity. I got married civally because I was exed back when I was a teen. What started my awakening were the symbols on the Nauvoo and Salt Lake temple.. And garments.. The connection from freemasons to mormons...Take the endowment, the most sacred thing in the church...fashioned from Masonry. I was done
From your
reply to my question, which I don't see you allowed it to be posted, is
that you no longer believe in baptism and sacrament, but if it was
something that was still necessary, that anyone including myself could
perform the ordinance? I just want to make sure what you are professing
to be your new found belief.
It takes years, and once you leave, you're CUT OFF completely from the
community and are often start life all over as if you were an orphan. I
was raised as a JW. It takes time to recover.
Its hardly a choice when you're 8 years old. Then 12, 16, 18, 19... By
then you're so wrapped up in it, you're afraid to leave because you
don't want your support system yanked out from underneath you.
You exalt the name of an angel (by being called Mormons) rather than of God. That's quite scary and doubtful to believe.
So the translation of the Book of Mormon was not perfect since there were many edits later, and the manner it was translated was weird. There were contradictions in the Book of Mormon that later was modified. It showed Joseph Smith had false understanding of God when he translated the book. He had great imagination of the history of the people on this continent and was able to tell stories like real. And he even copied from the Bible to fill the Book of Mormon.
Why would the LORD choose a young man who didn't know well about God to be appointed to do his work? Why the LORD didn't correct Joseph's translation when it was wrong? Could it be Satan who pretended to be the LORD or angel who showed up to Joseph to tell him to do this work? Why would the neighbors seemed to be so crazy trying to destroy this effort of translating the book? If the struggle is between one man and the rest of the community, who could be right, who could be wrong? Certainly the way those people who tried to stop this work seemed to be very evil. Joseph was just trying to follow what the angel told him to do and did nothing evil except the manner of the translation was weird and the translation was not perfect. If Joseph didn't have any scribes, and just translated as normal like writing a book without the help from a stone and hat, would anyone believe that he translated instead of fabricated the whole book? I think it would be a lot harder to write a book with a scribe in presence than with no one watching. At least if Joseph was all alone writing the book, he could go back and forth correct things and straighten his story up a little bit. Writing a whole book word b word without going back to correct is much harder. And they worked hours after hours with no break, so he didn't even have the time to think about how to make up the next paragraph. It would be so hard to make up a story with no stopping, no rest, and with someone close by watching you. And to get all the names spelled out correctly, consistently, he would have to have an amazing brain and memory. Meanwhile he had to pretend that he didn't know how to pronounce some names at first and didn't know the Bible well, so others would be fooled and believe in him. Why didn't he try to be knowledgeable and know everything. Why did Martin Harris take the copied characters to show other scholars to see if they could translate the same? Maybe they wanted to make sure that no one knows how to translate so Joseph can make up anything he wants? I don't think so, since no one would get to see the original characters later on. I think most likely Joseph was not sure if the translation was correct and wanted to get second opinions to see if he was translating them correctly, but no one knew.
..................................................
History:
500 Nations: Story of the Native Americans ~ 10 Lost Tribes of Israel {Part 1}
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4m2VTqHFtQ
Same as above here:
http://ascendingstarseed.wordpress.com/2013/11/04/500-nations-story-of-the-native-americans-10-lost-tribes-of-israel-part-1/
...............................................
Shawn McCraney
http://www.bornagainmormon.com/who-we-are/
Shawn was high stake counsel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_118385&feature=iv&src_vid=MbcmRO9aMOs&v=e-QnfKwNEMM#t=1s
The Collapse of Mormonism: Why Millions Are no longer Mormons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn1iGvXU0dI
56:32 mostly book of Abraham
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